I'm no theologian, but wanted to say thank you for the reminder that Jesus's way "is a direct contradiction to the way of this world." Trying to live that contradictory life is hard - even (especially) in a church with other spirit lead people. The world's "rational" point of view overtakes our thoughts so easily and influences how we act and advise others to act. So, thank you again for the reminder!
Interesting thanks Matt. Some years ago, we made a conscious decision not to use the title "senior pastor." We chose "pastoral leader" instead. I recently heard Scot McKnight encouraging churches not to use the title "leader". What do you think?
Thanks Phil! I honestly think that applying Jesus' teaching on these things would change quite a bit. I think it was a good move to forgo "senior pastor." The denotation alone makes that one hard to justify. But there is also the connotation of these words to consider. I'd argue that "pastor" typically implies far more than gifting or function these days. There is something significant to it, something that sets a person apart and makes them a special sort of brother or sister, not like the rest of us. Something that does what "Rabbi" did to the Pharisees who Jesus critiques in Matthew 23:6-12. If our words were descriptive of function or gifting, I think "pastor" and "leader" maybe, possibly, could be ok :). But, given the weight and baggage they come with now, it might be good to consider shelving those for a bit.
It's the same reason I hate the word, "lay person" or "laity," especially in contrast with "clergy." It undermines vast majority of the family of Christ. Think of the language used to describe the entire people of God in the New Testament: holy ones, partners, benefactors, co-laborers, sons and daughters, children of God, ministers, priests, etc. Anything that subverts the dignity of the saints should be far from our mouths and actions. It's not hard for me to see how "pastor" or "leader" could do that. However, when leadership is shared, I think that changes things. I'm in support of "elders" as a plurality of leaders in a community, and dignity is maintained if we believe that anyone can pursue that calling.
Thanks Matt. I have been challenged to reassess what I consider to be "church" because my reo Māori class ticks more of the boxes for church than the place I call by that name. Can my reo class be church?
Interesting to ponder your questions in relation to my reo class - we could easily answer "ae" for most of them. It is led by Godly kaiako for whom it is mahi aroha - an unpaid service of love to a small group of mostly believers who don't have the means to pay to get their own language back. We have no idea what denomination people are and no one cares because Jesus is the centre, scripture is unpacked, karakia, whakamoemiti, everyone speaks and is listened to, koha is whatever you can contribute (time to set up etc or a packet of biscuits, whatever) and all gifts and abilities are appreciated and encouraged to be extended towards growing others and the Kingdom - yeah, it's definitely church eh!
Would that my other church were more like my reo church.
Sandy, I have felt very much at "home" in Māori spaces here. And I think a huge reason for that is because you embrace naturally so many values that are closer to church-as-family than Westerners. Many of my folk strive after power, control, truth, logic, etc., and I just don't think those are primary. There are always going to be things Jesus teaches that are counter-cultural in any context. But, I think some of us have more to disentangle than others, more to unlearn.
I would add, that with these questions, the subtext is always seeing the gospel take root and flourish in our communities. But the values you mentioned, I've seen naturally embraced in eye-opening ways the last three years. I honestly believe that some powerful change can come to the church in Aotearoa if we pursue more of that.
Thanks for reading and commenting! Miss you, friend.
I am just riffing on your article as it sparks different thoughts, but I'll try to make a point. I see gospel life and community flourishing all over the place and a part of it is even in the church, but not all, by any means. For example, the subtext of the gospel flourishing underpins everything about our reo class, so I am definitely claiming it as part of the powerful change to the church that God is bringing in Aotearoa.
The point I want to make is that I think it is time to see all of it as God's church, not just the Sunday-focused institutions then the picture becomes rich, diverse and truly beautiful - and the questions that naturally arise from viewing that church are entirely different. It's a "strengths-based" viewpoint if you like, not a deficit view, starting from truly seeing the amazingness of God and the church. The kinds of questions this generates are things like "how do we throw wide the gates, doors and windows so that those around us get to see and know the wonder and glory of our God? "How do we show the beauty of the church to a world that desperately needs to see God through us?" "How do we live, love and lean more into what is already fruitful and godly so that people, whānau and whenua flourish?...
I'm no theologian, but wanted to say thank you for the reminder that Jesus's way "is a direct contradiction to the way of this world." Trying to live that contradictory life is hard - even (especially) in a church with other spirit lead people. The world's "rational" point of view overtakes our thoughts so easily and influences how we act and advise others to act. So, thank you again for the reminder!
Interesting thanks Matt. Some years ago, we made a conscious decision not to use the title "senior pastor." We chose "pastoral leader" instead. I recently heard Scot McKnight encouraging churches not to use the title "leader". What do you think?
Thanks Phil! I honestly think that applying Jesus' teaching on these things would change quite a bit. I think it was a good move to forgo "senior pastor." The denotation alone makes that one hard to justify. But there is also the connotation of these words to consider. I'd argue that "pastor" typically implies far more than gifting or function these days. There is something significant to it, something that sets a person apart and makes them a special sort of brother or sister, not like the rest of us. Something that does what "Rabbi" did to the Pharisees who Jesus critiques in Matthew 23:6-12. If our words were descriptive of function or gifting, I think "pastor" and "leader" maybe, possibly, could be ok :). But, given the weight and baggage they come with now, it might be good to consider shelving those for a bit.
It's the same reason I hate the word, "lay person" or "laity," especially in contrast with "clergy." It undermines vast majority of the family of Christ. Think of the language used to describe the entire people of God in the New Testament: holy ones, partners, benefactors, co-laborers, sons and daughters, children of God, ministers, priests, etc. Anything that subverts the dignity of the saints should be far from our mouths and actions. It's not hard for me to see how "pastor" or "leader" could do that. However, when leadership is shared, I think that changes things. I'm in support of "elders" as a plurality of leaders in a community, and dignity is maintained if we believe that anyone can pursue that calling.
Thanks Matt. I have been challenged to reassess what I consider to be "church" because my reo Māori class ticks more of the boxes for church than the place I call by that name. Can my reo class be church?
Interesting to ponder your questions in relation to my reo class - we could easily answer "ae" for most of them. It is led by Godly kaiako for whom it is mahi aroha - an unpaid service of love to a small group of mostly believers who don't have the means to pay to get their own language back. We have no idea what denomination people are and no one cares because Jesus is the centre, scripture is unpacked, karakia, whakamoemiti, everyone speaks and is listened to, koha is whatever you can contribute (time to set up etc or a packet of biscuits, whatever) and all gifts and abilities are appreciated and encouraged to be extended towards growing others and the Kingdom - yeah, it's definitely church eh!
Would that my other church were more like my reo church.
Sandy, I have felt very much at "home" in Māori spaces here. And I think a huge reason for that is because you embrace naturally so many values that are closer to church-as-family than Westerners. Many of my folk strive after power, control, truth, logic, etc., and I just don't think those are primary. There are always going to be things Jesus teaches that are counter-cultural in any context. But, I think some of us have more to disentangle than others, more to unlearn.
I would add, that with these questions, the subtext is always seeing the gospel take root and flourish in our communities. But the values you mentioned, I've seen naturally embraced in eye-opening ways the last three years. I honestly believe that some powerful change can come to the church in Aotearoa if we pursue more of that.
Thanks for reading and commenting! Miss you, friend.
I am just riffing on your article as it sparks different thoughts, but I'll try to make a point. I see gospel life and community flourishing all over the place and a part of it is even in the church, but not all, by any means. For example, the subtext of the gospel flourishing underpins everything about our reo class, so I am definitely claiming it as part of the powerful change to the church that God is bringing in Aotearoa.
The point I want to make is that I think it is time to see all of it as God's church, not just the Sunday-focused institutions then the picture becomes rich, diverse and truly beautiful - and the questions that naturally arise from viewing that church are entirely different. It's a "strengths-based" viewpoint if you like, not a deficit view, starting from truly seeing the amazingness of God and the church. The kinds of questions this generates are things like "how do we throw wide the gates, doors and windows so that those around us get to see and know the wonder and glory of our God? "How do we show the beauty of the church to a world that desperately needs to see God through us?" "How do we live, love and lean more into what is already fruitful and godly so that people, whānau and whenua flourish?...
I love all of this!