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Philip Church's avatar

Hi Matt, thanks for the thoughtful reply. Now you have got me thinking again about sacred space and about budgets. Like you, I wonder what makes space sacred. I suspect it might be because we might encounter God there. But if the universe is a cosmic temple and if the Jerusalem temple was a microcosm of the universe then the whole world is sacred space. In the OT you had to go to Jerusalem to encounter God, now we no longer need to worship on this mountain nor in Jerusalem (John 4:21). So sacred space might be any space we decide to set aside for worship. Some church traditions consecrate their church buildings (and deconsecrate them when they are no longer useful). While we Baptists might not go that far, I do think there is value in setting apart a space for worship, and where encounters with God can be facilitated. And that might be a church building.

I take your point exactly on church budgets, and I agree that churches ought to reconsider their budget priorities probably more often than we do. Twenty-five years ago the congregation of a church I am familiar with was much larger than it is now and a building fund was started as they felt we would outgrow the building. Now that is no longer a priority. There is a modest sum in the fund (and questions about honouring what the money was given for are complex), but I wonder if there are creative things that can be done with that fund along the lines of what you describe like a café or social housing. Here is money given for a new building that will not be needed in the foreseeable future languishing in the bank.

Stipend budgets are complex. Like you, I am committed to theological education and have been involved in that in various capacities for most of my adult life, both part-time and full-time. I have never been a paid pastoral worker, but in the churches I have been involved in I have been committed to using whatever gifts God has given me to contribute to the life of those churches. There are plenty of opportunities to do that where I am currently, and I am grateful for those opportunities. Nor am I the only person who has such opportunities. That said, there is a lot to be said for bi-vocational pastors, although in practical terms once a church reaches a certain critical mass, that may not always be possible.

I have probably said enough. Thanks for the conversation.

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Thanks, Matt for a thought-provoking blog. I am interested in your comments on church buildings and professional ministers, and I understand some of your points, but I think we need to be careful not to go too far in one direction.

I understand Baptist churches in NZ have properties worth $4 billion and a lot could be done if some of those buildings were sold. On the other hand, sacred space is important. I will give four examples.

In 1996 I went to Syria and visited Maaloula, a Christian town built into the side of a hill about 50km from Damascus, where the people still speak Aramaic. It contains a Syrian Orthodox monastery that was invaded and taken over by Jihadists in 2013 and now returned to the nuns. Part of the monastery complex is what is believed to be the oldest church in the world in continuous use since the second century. A place set aside for Christian worship for maybe 1900 years. That is truly a sacred space and we would be poorer without it.

I have been to Cyprus many times and have often visited the 9th-century Church of Saint Lazarus. After Jesus raised him from the dead Lazarus is said to have fled to Cyprus where he became the first bishop (so the story goes). You can go downstairs to the Crypt where Lazarus is said to have been buried. There is said to have been a church on that site long before St Lazarus was built. This too is a sacred space where people have come to pray for maybe almost 2000 years and we would be poorer without it.

About 20 years ago on one of my trips to Cyprus, I had a 10-hour layover in Frankfurt. There is a train line through Frankfurt Airport, and I took a train to Mainz to fill in some of the day. I took in the Gutenberg Museum and then wandered into the Mainz Cathedral. There I sat in a prayer chapel and mingled my prayers with those of countless people who had prayed in that place for 1,000 years. It was a sacred moment for me. (And then I got lost trying to find my way back to the railway station.)

And to bring it up to date, around 50 years ago I took my pre-school daughter to Auckland’s Holy Trinity Cathedral. She looked up at the high vaulted ceilings, leaned over to me, and said, “Daddy these people must love God very much.”

Of course, there are things we could do for the poor with some of what we have with church buildings, but I think Christians have been right to set aside spaces for believers to gather for worship over the centuries. And we would be much poorer if some of these spaces no longer existed.

As for professional ministers, I grew up in a group that now calls itself the Plymouth Brethren Christian Church They don’t believe in theological education or professional ministers and have now become (in my opinion) a heretical cult. As a graduate of Regent College and as someone who for twenty years while working as an accountant, ran a part-time school of theology for professional people in the secular workplace, of course, I agree with you when you ask, “What could churches do differently with our resources if we were able to see a Spirit-filled body of believers equipped for ministry rather than just a select few, or one? But if I read Ephesians 4:11–13 right, someone needs to do the equipping. And it seems to me that one way to do that is to train someone (in a theological college), set them aside for that purpose and pay them a stipend. There is a balance to be sure, but I don’t think there is wisdom in doing away with sacred spaces and “sacred” (in the sense of set apart) people to equip the people for the work of the ministry.

Thanks, Matt for a thought-provoking blog. I am interested in your comments on church buildings and professional ministers, and I understand some of your points, but I think we need to be careful not to go too far in one direction.

I understand Baptist churches in NZ have properties worth $4 billion and a lot could be done if some of those buildings were sold. On the other hand, sacred space is important. I will give four examples.

In 1996 I went to Syria and visited Maaloula, a Christian town built into the side of a hill about 50km from Damascus, where the people still speak Aramaic. It contains a Syrian Orthodox monastery that was invaded and taken over by Jihadists in 2013 and now returned to the nuns. Part of the monastery complex is what is believed to be the oldest church in the world in continuous use since the second century. A place set aside for Christian worship for maybe 1900 years. That is truly a sacred space and we would be poorer without it.

I have been to Cyprus many times and have often visited the 9th-century Church of Saint Lazarus. After Jesus raised him from the dead Lazarus is said to have fled to Cyprus where he became the first bishop (so the story goes). You can go downstairs to the Crypt where Lazarus is said to have been buried. There is said to have been a church on that site long before St Lazarus was built. This too is a sacred space where people have come to pray for maybe almost 2000 years and we would be poorer without it.

About 20 years ago on one of my trips to Cyprus, I had a 10-hour layover in Frankfurt. There is a train line through Frankfurt Airport, and I took a train to Mainz to fill in some of the day. I took in the Gutenberg Museum and then wandered into the Mainz Cathedral. There I sat in a prayer chapel and mingled my prayers with those of countless people who had prayed in that place for 1,000 years. It was a sacred moment for me. (And then I got lost trying to find my way back to the railway station.)

And to bring it up to date, around 50 years ago I took my pre-school daughter to Auckland’s Holy Trinity Cathedral. She looked up at the high vaulted ceilings, leaned over to me, and said, “Daddy these people must love God very much.”

Of course, there are things we could do for the poor with some of what we have with church buildings, but I think Christians have been right to set aside spaces for believers to gather for worship over the centuries. And we would be much poorer if some of these spaces no longer existed.

As for professional ministers, I grew up in a group that now calls itself the Plymouth Brethren Christian Church They don’t believe in theological education or professional ministers and have now become (in my opinion) a heretical cult. As a graduate of Regent College and as someone who for twenty years while working as an accountant, ran a part-time school of theology for professional people in the secular workplace, of course, I agree with you when you ask, “What could churches do differently with our resources if we were able to see a Spirit-filled body of believers equipped for ministry rather than just a select few, or one? But if I read Ephesians 4:11–13 right, someone needs to do the equipping. And it seems to me that one way to do that is to train someone (in a theological college), set them aside for that purpose and pay them a stipend. There is a balance to be sure, but I don’t think there is wisdom in doing away with sacred spaces and “sacred” (in the sense of set apart) people to equip the people for the work of the ministry.

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